They’re not doing like proton and close basic stuff like IMAP and SMTP as a way to force you on the official apps
I especially love the feature where you can bounce emails based on domains, keywords or TLDs. My spam folder is finally empty. IMHO bounce back spam is much better, as the spammers get a response that the address is invalid and hopefully stop wasting their limited computing resources on that address.
Zoho is not open source, but proton is a “fake” open source that is mostly used for marketing: they opened only the UI, which communicates with a proprietary protocol to a proprietary server - useless. They also reject or ignore any pull request on GitHub.
They’re not doing like proton and close basic stuff like IMAP and SMTP as a way to force you on the official apps
The reason Proton cannot do IMAP/SMTP is that they cannot read your emails which is required for both. That’s a feature, not a bug.
PM works with any app as long as the app implements their custom protocol for which there are at least two FOSS implementations as a reference.
proton is a “fake” open source that is mostly used for marketing: they opened only the UI, which communicates with a proprietary protocol to a proprietary server - useless
While I’d also prefer their back-end to be OSS, it’s not nearly as critical as the clients.
As a user, it doesn’t make a difference. I’m paying for an opaque service either way.
All the interesting stuff (E2EE, zero access storage) happen in the clients anyways. The BE is fairly uninteresting; it’s a mail server + zero-access encryption + Proton account handling. If you really wanted to build a mail service similar to Proton, you could build that yourself and probably would have to anyways.
i think instead the opposite. The backend is the real interesting part, and the only way that we can be sure that “they cannot read the emails” (they arrive in clear, saved with reversible encryption and they have a key for it - if you use their services to commit crimes they will collaborate with the law enforcement agencies like everyone else)
imap/smtp can be toggled with a warning, if that’s really their concern. As of now i have the feeling that’s instead blocked to keep users inside (no IMAP = no easy migration to somewhere else) or to limit usage (no SMTP = no sending mass email)
The backend is the real interesting part, and the only way that we can be sure that “they cannot read the emails”
While I’d still prefer it, OSS can’t really help with that because what’s really required here is remote attestation.
That is an unsolved problem to my knowledge; there is no way to know which software they’re actually running. Even if they published the source code, they could trivially apply a patch in their deployment that stores all incoming email somewhere and you’d be none the wiser.
Even if they published source code and could somehow prove to you that they’re running a version derived from it, you would still not be safe from surveillance as one could simply MITM all connections. See i.e. https://notes.valdikss.org.ru/jabber.ru-mitm/.
That’s likely one of the reasons they do everything they can to make PGP accessible to every user.
imap/smtp can be toggled with a warning, if that’s really their concern
It’s plain and simply not how their service works. They’d have to build most of their service a second time but unencrypted.
It’s like asking Signal to build in support for IRC; it does not make sense for them to do that in any way without malicious intent needed.
no IMAP = no easy migration to somewhere else
You have IMAP access via the bridge. That’s what it’s for.
i started with the mail basic (10 euro yearly for 10gb) but then because i switched from “secondary email that forwards to gmail” to “primary email that imports from gmail”, i had to move to the more expensive plan
I mean, that’s going to be a risk you take with any hosted service. I currently self-host my contacts and calendar, but I have no interest in hosting my own email again.
I don’t self host my email either. I got my registrar, DNS and email separate from each other so if any of them goes bad I can switch with minimum fuss.
But that makes it all the more important to be able to download all your mail from your provider.
Proton currently has two proprietary things you can use to download, a “bridge” PC app that pretends to speak IMAP, and a download tool. The bridge will be discontinued after they launch their propeietary PC mail app so that leaves just the proprietary download tool, which only does .eml. format.
That’s a very broad question that depends a lot on your usage. My needs may be different from yours.
I’m currently using Migadu because:
Unlimited domains, mailboxes, accounts and aliases for a flat fee. I’m managing accounts for myself as well as family and extended family members and it comes out much cheaper this way than services that ask $5-10/account.
Very nice management interface with all the bells and whistles but with reasonable defaults and easy to use.
The company is based in Switzerland and the mail hosted in EU (France).
Standard email service with everything you’d expect (the regular protocols, spam protection, webmail, full compatibility with clients etc.)
Zoho and PM have two entirely different reasons for existence. If you don’t want E2EE (assuming the other sender is on PM) then by all means, use Zoho. And IMAP isn’t E2EE compatible in the slightest, what they’re charging for is the decryption bridge that makes it work with an IMAP client. They had to come up with that, it’s not just a switch you flip at PMs end that makes IMAP work.
I moved off to zoho
Much cheaper than proton and offers much more.
They’re not doing like proton and close basic stuff like IMAP and SMTP as a way to force you on the official apps
I especially love the feature where you can bounce emails based on domains, keywords or TLDs. My spam folder is finally empty. IMHO bounce back spam is much better, as the spammers get a response that the address is invalid and hopefully stop wasting their limited computing resources on that address.
Zoho is not open source, but proton is a “fake” open source that is mostly used for marketing: they opened only the UI, which communicates with a proprietary protocol to a proprietary server - useless. They also reject or ignore any pull request on GitHub.
The reason Proton cannot do IMAP/SMTP is that they cannot read your emails which is required for both. That’s a feature, not a bug.
PM works with any app as long as the app implements their custom protocol for which there are at least two FOSS implementations as a reference.
While I’d also prefer their back-end to be OSS, it’s not nearly as critical as the clients.
As a user, it doesn’t make a difference. I’m paying for an opaque service either way.
All the interesting stuff (E2EE, zero access storage) happen in the clients anyways. The BE is fairly uninteresting; it’s a mail server + zero-access encryption + Proton account handling. If you really wanted to build a mail service similar to Proton, you could build that yourself and probably would have to anyways.
i think instead the opposite. The backend is the real interesting part, and the only way that we can be sure that “they cannot read the emails” (they arrive in clear, saved with reversible encryption and they have a key for it - if you use their services to commit crimes they will collaborate with the law enforcement agencies like everyone else)
imap/smtp can be toggled with a warning, if that’s really their concern. As of now i have the feeling that’s instead blocked to keep users inside (no IMAP = no easy migration to somewhere else) or to limit usage (no SMTP = no sending mass email)
While I’d still prefer it, OSS can’t really help with that because what’s really required here is remote attestation.
That is an unsolved problem to my knowledge; there is no way to know which software they’re actually running. Even if they published the source code, they could trivially apply a patch in their deployment that stores all incoming email somewhere and you’d be none the wiser.
Even if they published source code and could somehow prove to you that they’re running a version derived from it, you would still not be safe from surveillance as one could simply MITM all connections. See i.e. https://notes.valdikss.org.ru/jabber.ru-mitm/.
That’s likely one of the reasons they do everything they can to make PGP accessible to every user.
It’s plain and simply not how their service works. They’d have to build most of their service a second time but unencrypted.
It’s like asking Signal to build in support for IRC; it does not make sense for them to do that in any way without malicious intent needed.
You have IMAP access via the bridge. That’s what it’s for.
What Zoho plan are you using? I can’t quite tell what the difference between the free and lite tiers is except for IMAP/POP support.
I moved over to Proton earlier this year and have had a good experience so far, but I’m not married to it or anything.
i started with the mail basic (10 euro yearly for 10gb) but then because i switched from “secondary email that forwards to gmail” to “primary email that imports from gmail”, i had to move to the more expensive plan
Proton has been gradually closing down access to proprietary apps only. After they’re done you won’t be able to take your email anywhere else.
If you have your own domain you’ll be able to host it elsewhere but you would leave behind email, calendar, aliases etc. and restarting from scratch.
At that point “encrypted” starts smelling more like “hostage”. It’s generally a bad idea to be tied down to a specific email provider.
You could wake up tomorrow to find out Proton has been acquired and the new owners can charge anything yet want for continued service.
I mean, that’s going to be a risk you take with any hosted service. I currently self-host my contacts and calendar, but I have no interest in hosting my own email again.
I don’t self host my email either. I got my registrar, DNS and email separate from each other so if any of them goes bad I can switch with minimum fuss.
But that makes it all the more important to be able to download all your mail from your provider.
Proton currently has two proprietary things you can use to download, a “bridge” PC app that pretends to speak IMAP, and a download tool. The bridge will be discontinued after they launch their propeietary PC mail app so that leaves just the proprietary download tool, which only does .eml. format.
Okay, I’m following. So who would you recommend as an email provider?
That’s a very broad question that depends a lot on your usage. My needs may be different from yours.
I’m currently using Migadu because:
Zoho and PM have two entirely different reasons for existence. If you don’t want E2EE (assuming the other sender is on PM) then by all means, use Zoho. And IMAP isn’t E2EE compatible in the slightest, what they’re charging for is the decryption bridge that makes it work with an IMAP client. They had to come up with that, it’s not just a switch you flip at PMs end that makes IMAP work.