I don’t know what they do where you live, but here we have license plates for work vehicles and personal vehicles. Work vehicles are subject to different tax and rules. This tax would apply to personal vehicles, ideally, as those are the problem.
No, it doesn’t. Gas tax goes into the tax pool which is used to pay for most things that taxes pay for. We all pay for roads just as we all pay for hospitals, regardless of if we personally use them.
The taxes for larger vehicles is already done, it goes into the same pool that pays for maintenance. If you think the government is not fixing the roads as it should, that is a sepperate issue.
The better pitch is to consider the “tax” like an additional permit with increased costs, including mandatory more expensive insurance. It’s the cost of doing business, wrapped into your overhead. The disparity between the large pickups and the smaller sedans of yesteryear are staggering; imagine if you could buy and operate a semi truck with the same costs and licensing as a sedan. Trailers parked in front of your house completely obscuring the street, or taking up extra spots at the grocery store. People who don’t know the size of their vehicle knocking over signs and mailboxes. More roadkill, dead pets, and pedestrian fatalities because there are so many blind spots for such a big truck.
Obviously, pickups and semis are still quite different in size, but the point is that pickups and large SUVs are now so much bigger than sedans–bigger than what we built our streets and bridges for–that they present additional danger.
Larger vehicles cause more wear and tear on the road just by driving on them
collisions and accidents are more destructive and fatal due to the more deadly shape and weight
blind spots are bigger, making the vehicle more dangerous for anyone outside of it
effects of distracted driving are compounded
irresponsible drivers get to drive these larger vehicles without any additional barrier to entry
In short: these machines can be used to perform specific tasks, but they are not the same size, shape, or weight of our lived environment. Additional regulation is needed to offset the real effects on people and infrastructure (e.g., more difficult licensing, higher registration fees, higher tolls, etc.).
Everything you mention should be accounted for by higher insurance and the gas tax.
I think what we are running into is the conflict between freedom vs safety. I think it will get more apparent as people are not able to afford things that we have reached the point where we have too much regulation and things will get too expensive for people to afford.
Nah. People can’t drive a bus or a semi without a CDL. It’s not hard to get, sure, but you still have to go through at least some training and weeding out process, because those vehicles are more dangerous than a car. Bigger SUVs are now reaching that point, particularly if standard safety infrastructure is not designed for them. Once you hit that point, any person’s freedom to drive it is outweighed by the freedom of everyone else to not be threatened by it. We can either redo every damn road in America, while also accepting much higher death rates, or we can limit these larger vehicles. Pretty obvious what the better option is.
I’m not quite sure what you mean by “regulation”. Increasing the cost, such as by mandating higher and more comprehensive insurance, or instituting a gas tax are both regulatory measures.
Why should you AS a member of society contribute to its betterment? You must know that driving over potholes with a pickup truck full of Materials and equipment tends to have negative consequences
The gas tax should about pay for the potholes. But do you really think the cost of filling potholes is that much relative to the size of the government?
The typical size and weight of pickup trucks has increased massively since the '90s:
“Since 1990, U.S. pickup trucks have added almost 1,300 pounds on average. Some of the biggest vehicles on the market now weigh almost 7,000 pounds — or about three Honda Civics.”
“Moreover, pickups’ weight increased by 32% between 1990 and 2021 … In the 1980s, about half of pickup trucks were categorized as small or midsize. But by the 2010s, small pickups had nearly vanished as Americans increasingly bought into the big truck lifestyle.”
Pick-ups are also larger than their '90s counterparts:
“A [Consumer Reports] analysis of industry data shows that the hood height of passenger trucks has increased by an average of at least 11 percent since 2000 and that new pickups grew 24 percent heavier on average from 2000 to 2018. On some heavy-duty trucks, such as the Ford F-250, the front edge of the hood is now 55 inches or more off the ground—as tall as the roof of some sedans.”
Paradoxically, pick up trucks made before the '90s had more capacity for transporting construction supplies and equipment than their new counterparts:
"As pickups transitioned from workhorses to lifestyle vehicles, their design shifted accordingly: Cabs expanded to accommodate more passengers, while beds shrank.
“The first generation of F-150s was 36% cab and 64% bed by length. By 2021, the ratio flipped, with 63% cab and 37% bed.”
Each time you double the weight of a vehicle, you cause roughly 16 times as much pavement damage:
“The generalized fourth-power law explains why road damage is disproportionately inflicted by the heftiest vehicles. Developed after extensive federal roadway testing during the 1950s, the law is a rule of thumb showing that roadway stress caused by two vehicles is a function of their relative weight per axle scaled to the fourth power. As a result, a single 80,000-pound auto hauler with five axles can cause around 4,000 times the destruction of a two-ton car.”
In Australia, main roads are generally funded by federal and state governments through a mix of fuel excise and consolidated revenue. Local streets, which account for most of the road network, are funded by local councils through rates.
Despite the added cost, receive several tax breaks under Australia’s tax code.
"Temporary Full Expensing allowed for vehicles to be claimed as an immediate, one-off tax deductible expense, and while that deduction was capped at $60,000 for passenger vehicles, there was no limit for vehicles that can carry at least a tonne.
“And the Loss Carry Back tax offset allows a business to claim the purchase of a new vehicle against the previous year’s profits if that vehicle creates a net loss for the business.”
All while having smaller cabs, making them less effective tools for transporting construction supplies and equipment.
Then there’s the higher pollution. This leads to more frequent and severe bushfires, droughts, floods, hurricanes and heatwaves.
“Currently, automakers must hit a fleet-wide target for cars of 181 grams of CO2 emitted per mile, but 261 for light trucks, a 36 percent difference. By 2026, cars must average out to 132 grams of CO2 per mile compared with 187 for light trucks, a 34 percent difference.”
“Treasurer Jim Chalmers has warned economic pressure from natural disasters will continue through 2023 after modelling showed severe flooding across the country last year cost the economy $5 billion.”
Then there’s the added costs of higher fatalities from larger, heavier vehicles:
“More than 7,500 pedestrians were killed by drivers last year — the highest number since 1981. The final tally may be even greater given that Oklahoma was unable to provide data due to a technical issue.”
"The chances of a pedestrian dying in a single-vehicle crash were 68 percent higher when that vehicle was a light truck relative to a car, all else being equal.
More tailpipe emissions means more deaths and hospitalisations:
"Tailpipe pollution contributes to the premature death of 11,105 Australians every year, according to new research.
“The modelling from the University of Melbourne claims vehicle emissions in Australia are also to blame for more than 12,000 hospitalisations annually due to cardiovascular issues, along with almost 7000 respiratory hospitalisations per year.”
@Rediphile@CableMonster
Yes those too!
There is probably some scientific way to do this. Measure the impact on roads, society, other road users and the environment. and tax the vehicles with the worst impact more.
This whole thread started because someone mentioned the idea of taxing vehicles over 5000lbs, which a normal gas f150 is not. So this hypothetical tax probably wouldn’t apply to your work truck.
And yeah, I also was poking fun at the people giving you shit because they are accidentally showing implied support for combustion engines.
And I’m having a giggle in general about how often people don’t read the article or get sidetracked from what is actually even being talked about.
@CableMonster
Thanks.
You can probably see where I am going with this.
There is a big difference between a smaller practice work truck and a giant monster truck.
The aim of any taxes should be to discourage certain trucks and encourage others.
IMO, you should be exempt. The vast majority of jobs don’t require a truck, yet the F150 is the most-sold vehicle in the US. So you’re in the minority.
I mean you kinda have a point. There absolutely are smaller, safer vehicles that would fit your needs. But unfortunately those aren’t available in a lot of places (like the US).
I’d be down for a large vehicle tax, but you would need a way for people who genuinely need a truck to have it waived.
Why should I have to subsidize your oversized work vehicle and the extra wear and tear it causes our infrastructure?
Drive a van. Drive a truck that is reasonably sized and designed for human work (like are used in many countries around the world). Pickups don’t have to be built on frames sized for semis.
And you dont understand the needs of people that do work on housing, you can tow a significant trailer or haul heavy things with a van or small pickup. A half ton pickup is not useful for real work.
I do get it. You have no reasonable excuse to drive a multi-ton pickup that’s tall enough that you can’t see people standing in front of it. There are alternatives or it’s not needed as a daily driver. How is it that the rest of the world manages to accomplish the same things with smaller vehicles?
Keep trying to justify it to yourself or just own the fact that it’s ostentatious and ridiculous.
What kind of conceited child tells people to “do some real work” and talks like no one else could exist but by the grace of their work?
hyper individualism
blind support for oversized trucks
Gotta be from the US, huh?
Take a look outside your country and see how things are done elsewhere. I can’t fault you for the shitty US auto.industry continuing to needlessly bloat the size of vehicles past what is reasonable, but I can fault you for your blind support of it.
Go do some real work and take a good hard look at how your truck compares to those from the 1990s or the early 2000s. Unless it’s specialized, does it have a bigger bed? Is the bed at a reasonable height for lifting things in and out of, or is it needlessly tall? Where are your spark plugs - do you need to take the entire cab off to access and replace them? How tall is the hood - when you hit a pedestrian, do they roll on top of the hood and survive or do they go under the vehicle and get dragged along and killed? Can you see around your vehicle enough to park and maneuver easily, or do you require a dedicated GPU and camera system that renders a 3D image of your surroundings because otherwise you couldn’t park your rig because you can’t see a single thing within 30 ft of your vehicle in any direction? When something goes wrong and your vehicle needs work, do you have to take it to a specialized mechanic to fix it, or can you take it to almost any mechanic to fix? Better yet, can you do some real work and fix it yourself, or does it require proprietary tools and specialized software to maintain?
You tell me: what is needed and what is not needed? New trucks suck. They are bloated, ostentatious pieces of trash.
I have to drive a pickup for work, why should I have a very steep tax for helping to build and fix your housing?
Can’t tell if /s or not… Infrastructure isn’t housing, it’s roads, bridges, etc
Great, but the question stands, why should I be penelized for needing a vehicle that fixes and builds your housing?
I don’t know what they do where you live, but here we have license plates for work vehicles and personal vehicles. Work vehicles are subject to different tax and rules. This tax would apply to personal vehicles, ideally, as those are the problem.
Why should work vehicles be harder to use and get higher taxes?
Why should my tax dollars go to maintaining your highways when I don’t own a car?
Gas tax does that.
No, it doesn’t. Gas tax goes into the tax pool which is used to pay for most things that taxes pay for. We all pay for roads just as we all pay for hospitals, regardless of if we personally use them.
The taxes for larger vehicles is already done, it goes into the same pool that pays for maintenance. If you think the government is not fixing the roads as it should, that is a sepperate issue.
Great question.
The better pitch is to consider the “tax” like an additional permit with increased costs, including mandatory more expensive insurance. It’s the cost of doing business, wrapped into your overhead. The disparity between the large pickups and the smaller sedans of yesteryear are staggering; imagine if you could buy and operate a semi truck with the same costs and licensing as a sedan. Trailers parked in front of your house completely obscuring the street, or taking up extra spots at the grocery store. People who don’t know the size of their vehicle knocking over signs and mailboxes. More roadkill, dead pets, and pedestrian fatalities because there are so many blind spots for such a big truck.
Obviously, pickups and semis are still quite different in size, but the point is that pickups and large SUVs are now so much bigger than sedans–bigger than what we built our streets and bridges for–that they present additional danger.
In short: these machines can be used to perform specific tasks, but they are not the same size, shape, or weight of our lived environment. Additional regulation is needed to offset the real effects on people and infrastructure (e.g., more difficult licensing, higher registration fees, higher tolls, etc.).
Everything you mention should be accounted for by higher insurance and the gas tax.
I think what we are running into is the conflict between freedom vs safety. I think it will get more apparent as people are not able to afford things that we have reached the point where we have too much regulation and things will get too expensive for people to afford.
Nah. People can’t drive a bus or a semi without a CDL. It’s not hard to get, sure, but you still have to go through at least some training and weeding out process, because those vehicles are more dangerous than a car. Bigger SUVs are now reaching that point, particularly if standard safety infrastructure is not designed for them. Once you hit that point, any person’s freedom to drive it is outweighed by the freedom of everyone else to not be threatened by it. We can either redo every damn road in America, while also accepting much higher death rates, or we can limit these larger vehicles. Pretty obvious what the better option is.
deleted by creator
I’m not quite sure what you mean by “regulation”. Increasing the cost, such as by mandating higher and more comprehensive insurance, or instituting a gas tax are both regulatory measures.
Why should you AS a member of society contribute to its betterment? You must know that driving over potholes with a pickup truck full of Materials and equipment tends to have negative consequences
The gas tax should about pay for the potholes. But do you really think the cost of filling potholes is that much relative to the size of the government?
deleted by creator
@LovesTha @CableMonster @DriftinGrifter Okay, let’s break this one down a little bit:
“Since 1990, U.S. pickup trucks have added almost 1,300 pounds on average. Some of the biggest vehicles on the market now weigh almost 7,000 pounds — or about three Honda Civics.”
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-11/the-dangerous-rise-of-the-supersized-pickup-truck
“Moreover, pickups’ weight increased by 32% between 1990 and 2021 … In the 1980s, about half of pickup trucks were categorized as small or midsize. But by the 2010s, small pickups had nearly vanished as Americans increasingly bought into the big truck lifestyle.”
https://www.axios.com/2023/01/23/pickup-trucks-f150-size-weight-safety
“A [Consumer Reports] analysis of industry data shows that the hood height of passenger trucks has increased by an average of at least 11 percent since 2000 and that new pickups grew 24 percent heavier on average from 2000 to 2018. On some heavy-duty trucks, such as the Ford F-250, the front edge of the hood is now 55 inches or more off the ground—as tall as the roof of some sedans.”
https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/the-hidden-dangers-of-big-trucks/
"As pickups transitioned from workhorses to lifestyle vehicles, their design shifted accordingly: Cabs expanded to accommodate more passengers, while beds shrank.
“The first generation of F-150s was 36% cab and 64% bed by length. By 2021, the ratio flipped, with 63% cab and 37% bed.”
https://www.axios.com/2023/01/23/pickup-trucks-f150-size-weight-safety
“The generalized fourth-power law explains why road damage is disproportionately inflicted by the heftiest vehicles. Developed after extensive federal roadway testing during the 1950s, the law is a rule of thumb showing that roadway stress caused by two vehicles is a function of their relative weight per axle scaled to the fourth power. As a result, a single 80,000-pound auto hauler with five axles can cause around 4,000 times the destruction of a two-ton car.”
https://slate.com/business/2023/06/electric-vehicles-auto-haulers-weight-capacity-roads.html
In Australia, main roads are generally funded by federal and state governments through a mix of fuel excise and consolidated revenue. Local streets, which account for most of the road network, are funded by local councils through rates.
Despite the added cost, receive several tax breaks under Australia’s tax code.
"Temporary Full Expensing allowed for vehicles to be claimed as an immediate, one-off tax deductible expense, and while that deduction was capped at $60,000 for passenger vehicles, there was no limit for vehicles that can carry at least a tonne.
“And the Loss Carry Back tax offset allows a business to claim the purchase of a new vehicle against the previous year’s profits if that vehicle creates a net loss for the business.”
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-01-09/australian-cars-getting-bigger-should-government-intervene/103287604
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@LovesTha @CableMonster @DriftinGrifter So pick-up trucks are now typically larger, heavier, and cause more road damage than their '90s counterparts.
All while having smaller cabs, making them less effective tools for transporting construction supplies and equipment.
“Currently, automakers must hit a fleet-wide target for cars of 181 grams of CO2 emitted per mile, but 261 for light trucks, a 36 percent difference. By 2026, cars must average out to 132 grams of CO2 per mile compared with 187 for light trucks, a 34 percent difference.”
https://www.vice.com/en/article/3abk7b/bidens-new-fuel-economy-standards-still-allow-cars-to-pollute-more-if-theyre-not-called-cars
“Treasurer Jim Chalmers has warned economic pressure from natural disasters will continue through 2023 after modelling showed severe flooding across the country last year cost the economy $5 billion.”
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/floods-cost-economy-5-billion-last-year-20230112-p5cc1t.html
“More than 7,500 pedestrians were killed by drivers last year — the highest number since 1981. The final tally may be even greater given that Oklahoma was unable to provide data due to a technical issue.”
https://www.npr.org/2023/06/26/1184034017/us-pedestrian-deaths-high-traffic-car
"The chances of a pedestrian dying in a single-vehicle crash were 68 percent higher when that vehicle was a light truck relative to a car, all else being equal.
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/01/higher-vehicle-hoods-significantly-increase-pedestrian-deaths-study-finds/
"Tailpipe pollution contributes to the premature death of 11,105 Australians every year, according to new research.
“The modelling from the University of Melbourne claims vehicle emissions in Australia are also to blame for more than 12,000 hospitalisations annually due to cardiovascular issues, along with almost 7000 respiratory hospitalisations per year.”
https://www.drive.com.au/news/emissions-kill-10x-more-australians-than-road-toll/
So that’s 10 good reasons right there.
(2/3)
@LovesTha @CableMonster @DriftinGrifter So let’s sum this up then.
Modern pickup trucks are substantially larger and heavier than their '90s counterparts, with a smaller cab.
That means they weigh far more, are far bigger, and yet carry less than the vehicles that did the same job 30 years ago.
At least in Australia, they are directly subsidised by the federal tax system. Federal and state taxes pay for main roads.
And they’re giant economic externality machines.
On local streets, which are funded by local councils, they cause additional road damage that is cross-subsidised by local councils.
They generate externalised costs from higher emissions, in the term of more frequent and severe bushfires, floods, droughts, and hurricanes.
They generate externalities in terms of pedestrian injuries and deaths that are subsidised by the healthcare system.
They generate higher health costs from air pollution. Again, these costs are cross subsidised.
That’s without even getting into the massive subsidies at play with car-dependent suburban sprawl.
Or how modern pickup trucks are a massively inefficient use of road space.
Or how businesses are forced to cross-subsidise car ownership by needing to have large parking lots for motorists.
So yeah, it’s probably not unreasonable to ask you to pay your fair share for some of those costs.
(3/3)
deleted by creator
@CableMonster @anothercatgirl
Just out of curiosity, what sort of truck do you drive?
Just a standard 1 ton pickup.
So not a 7000lb+ EV then?
@Rediphile @CableMonster
Yes those too!
There is probably some scientific way to do this. Measure the impact on roads, society, other road users and the environment. and tax the vehicles with the worst impact more.
The entire article is about an EV truck specifically.
No, just standard fuel. Are you guys against EVs now?
This whole thread started because someone mentioned the idea of taxing vehicles over 5000lbs, which a normal gas f150 is not. So this hypothetical tax probably wouldn’t apply to your work truck.
And yeah, I also was poking fun at the people giving you shit because they are accidentally showing implied support for combustion engines.
And I’m having a giggle in general about how often people don’t read the article or get sidetracked from what is actually even being talked about.
that’s a quarter of the size of the vehicle in the headline though
@CableMonster
Thanks.
You can probably see where I am going with this.
There is a big difference between a smaller practice work truck and a giant monster truck.
The aim of any taxes should be to discourage certain trucks and encourage others.
IMO, you should be exempt. The vast majority of jobs don’t require a truck, yet the F150 is the most-sold vehicle in the US. So you’re in the minority.
I mean you kinda have a point. There absolutely are smaller, safer vehicles that would fit your needs. But unfortunately those aren’t available in a lot of places (like the US).
I’d be down for a large vehicle tax, but you would need a way for people who genuinely need a truck to have it waived.
Why should I have to subsidize your oversized work vehicle and the extra wear and tear it causes our infrastructure?
Drive a van. Drive a truck that is reasonably sized and designed for human work (like are used in many countries around the world). Pickups don’t have to be built on frames sized for semis.
Gas Tax covers the damage.
And you dont understand the needs of people that do work on housing, you can tow a significant trailer or haul heavy things with a van or small pickup. A half ton pickup is not useful for real work.
Excuses.
If you dont know what you are talking about then dont be a critique. Do some hard work and then you will get it.
I do get it. You have no reasonable excuse to drive a multi-ton pickup that’s tall enough that you can’t see people standing in front of it. There are alternatives or it’s not needed as a daily driver. How is it that the rest of the world manages to accomplish the same things with smaller vehicles?
Keep trying to justify it to yourself or just own the fact that it’s ostentatious and ridiculous.
I literally had a smaller vehicle before, and it didnt work. Again, do some real work so you actually understand what is needed and not needed.
What kind of conceited child tells people to “do some real work” and talks like no one else could exist but by the grace of their work?
Gotta be from the US, huh?
Take a look outside your country and see how things are done elsewhere. I can’t fault you for the shitty US auto.industry continuing to needlessly bloat the size of vehicles past what is reasonable, but I can fault you for your blind support of it.
Go do some real work and take a good hard look at how your truck compares to those from the 1990s or the early 2000s. Unless it’s specialized, does it have a bigger bed? Is the bed at a reasonable height for lifting things in and out of, or is it needlessly tall? Where are your spark plugs - do you need to take the entire cab off to access and replace them? How tall is the hood - when you hit a pedestrian, do they roll on top of the hood and survive or do they go under the vehicle and get dragged along and killed? Can you see around your vehicle enough to park and maneuver easily, or do you require a dedicated GPU and camera system that renders a 3D image of your surroundings because otherwise you couldn’t park your rig because you can’t see a single thing within 30 ft of your vehicle in any direction? When something goes wrong and your vehicle needs work, do you have to take it to a specialized mechanic to fix it, or can you take it to almost any mechanic to fix? Better yet, can you do some real work and fix it yourself, or does it require proprietary tools and specialized software to maintain?
You tell me: what is needed and what is not needed? New trucks suck. They are bloated, ostentatious pieces of trash.
Obviously I am not going to read that much from a flame thrower like you.