“Zero tolerance” policy on fighting. Any “active” participation resulted in automatic suspension. That part sounds fine, but active participation included things like holding up your hands in self defense or trying to push the person sitting on your chest while punching you in the face off of you.
I really don’t understand why schools have this rule (at least in many places in the US). Are they trying to teach you to not practice self defense and just let it happen? Doesn’t sound like a great thing to teach.
Since the late 90s, school admins have become increasingly “police state light”; multiple vice principals with walkie-talkies, metal detectors, 3 hour after school detention, saturday detention, in-school suspension (you go sit in a room in silence for literally the entire school day), and zero tolerance. Imagine getting punched in the face and THEN being expelled for it. And I’m not even talking about “rough inner-city schools” or whatever; this shit happened in the Berkshires.
Of course, all their security theatre commands a budget increase and attempts to instill a sense of fear of the state into students.
We’re worried about school board meetings being taken over now but the administrations went full right wing fascist 30 years ago.
And nobody cares because once they get through school, they never have to deal with it again. It’s an endless cycle of suffering, and nobody who is capable of stopping it is willing to do so.
Maybe its internet hokum, or maybe its real, I dont know.
by my favorite story I ever saw, that outlined how stupid the zero tolerance shit was, and how destructive it was, was a kid in the last year of highschool who moved over the weekend, and apparently a butterknife fell out of one of the boxes, and you could see if you really smashed your face up against the rear driver side window and looked really hard under the drivers seat… Which someone, apparently, did, and got the kid expelled for bringing dangerous weapons to school.
a butterknife isnt even a goddamn danger to butter. Muchless a human being. Especially when its locked in the goddamn car.
Because bad parents. Kids who are bullies usually have parents who are bullies, and even when their kid is the instigator, they will defend their kid and bully teachers and administrators into lifting punishment. Zero tolerance means that discretion is removed and everyone is punished.
The changes in parents the last few decades is why schools are so awful.
Looking at it from the other side, it’s actually rare that an innocent kid is beat up without context.
Usually there’s 2 kids that have a beef and have been egging each other on for days. Eventually one kid says something and the other kid snaps and makes the first move but the second kid was just as guilty.
If you only look at “who started it” the second kid gets off scot free, while the first kid gets punished. Not really fair.
"Zero tolerance " attempts to fix this by recognizing that both kids likely played a part.
You are delusional to the highest degree. Kids in school don’t fight even, it’s one-sided 99% of the time.
The reason for this (and the rule) is bullying. Bullies fight bullied, and everyone gets suspended because “they were fighting”. Since you announced in advance that was the policy, this enables you to conveniently ignore the bullying that has taken place, and instead act as if all bullying-related fights (read: all fights pretty much) are simple fights that do not require any more attention because the issue has been dealth with with punishment.
In turn, this means that a bully who already has a bad rap and generally doesn’t care about grades or standing with school admin because both are already at rock bottom can target any one kid and make their admin standing rock bottom because it will appear as if that kid is fighting all the time and constantly suspended.
There’s no “other side”. The kid who initiated violence is the one in the wrong, even if the other one has been egging him on. “Oh but what if the egging on is one sided and the kid can’t take it anymore?” That is a symptom of your bullying reporting being garbage, not of the natural order of kids. If that kid is taking it out violently it means they’ve tried every other avenue including telling an adult and nothing has changed.
I’m not saying it’s right, just that’s their rationale. I literally discussed this with a middle school principal a few days ago and that was what she said.
Regardless of what you think about the policy, the fact is that your kids will have to abide by it.
Fact: if your kid is being bullied, they need to communicate to a person of authority. Answering a bully with violence is the wrong choice 99% of the time. They are usually bigger than you and have backup.
Also usually it doesn’t progress to a fight the very first time, usually it takes weeks, and during this time you would have many opportunities to tell a teacher or something.
Again, not advocating that this is right, but that’s their rationale.
Bullying is a one directional situation. It’s straight physical and mental abuse. And saying zero tolerance is right because it’s two way or the bullied kid can tell an adult is akin to saying a woman could just leave the man beating her.
It’s naive. It’s harmful. And it’s ineffective.
Your middle school principal you discussed with this is only a single administrator. I’m sure different schools have had various rationale for implementing the policy and any anecdotal response doesn’t speak to the entirety of school administrators.
And what I’m saying is that the school administrator has a vested interest in “removing bullying” by making all bullying-related in incidents be actually something else.
I agree that violence is never the answer, but maybe next time instead of talking to someone who wants to not have to deal with bullying, talk to the students who are being bullied. I guarantee you that every single one of them has tried to alert an adult and the reaction was either “well he’s not doing anything too bad so I can’t do anything” or “he’s been put in detention temporarily and I am the only one aware that it was related to bullying”.
Every single instance of kids fighting in schools can be fixed by having actual support systems in place against bullying. Figure out who the bullies are, and remove them from the bullied’s life. Treat bullying as we treat parental abuse currently, it should be unacceptable that a treacher knew what was happening and did nothing, yet it happens daily.
Fact: currently, if a kid is being is being bullied, they need to learn how to end a fight.
What exactly is a person of authority going to do of you go to them? If they are going to actually do anything, is that thing going to stop it? I guarantee it won’t. Their rational might be this, but as it stands either you are blissfully unaware of the reality of bulling or you are aware and simply do not care.
Someone came up and suckerpunched the absolute fuck out of me from behind, Was someone who I never even interacted with, commented towards, or even thought about. I still think, to this day, he just wanted to look like a bad ass by hitting the biggest kid in the grade.
Because they used a crutch to get around due to a gimpy leg, and because I was over a foot taller, I was deemed the aggressor… and no amount of witnesses saying otherwise would convince the principle of my innocence. and because the office was so convinced of it, no one in my family believed me either, so no one fought against it. I had to complete a program for “violent” teens before I was allowed to return to school… a program that was little more than slave labor in the hottest not-summer-break months, where I got accused of being a (gay slur) because only (Gay slur)'s drink their drinks the way I did, apparently. Was a super happy fun time learning experience.
I totally don’t still carry the rage and bitterness about it to this day at all. Nope. not at all.
Zero tolerance anything is just lazy and worthless. Only reason to implement is so you don’t have to think or acknowledge any nuance. Admin can just shrug their shoulders and go “Sorry nothing I can do. Zero tolerance.”
I always told my kid to fight back, and I’d have their back. More parents should be that way. Same way too many kids get beat up in HS because they were afraid to fight back.
“Zero tolerance” policy on fighting. Any “active” participation resulted in automatic suspension. That part sounds fine, but active participation included things like holding up your hands in self defense or trying to push the person sitting on your chest while punching you in the face off of you.
I really don’t understand why schools have this rule (at least in many places in the US). Are they trying to teach you to not practice self defense and just let it happen? Doesn’t sound like a great thing to teach.
It’s easy for the administrators. No investigation, no attempt to understand what happened.
Since the late 90s, school admins have become increasingly “police state light”; multiple vice principals with walkie-talkies, metal detectors, 3 hour after school detention, saturday detention, in-school suspension (you go sit in a room in silence for literally the entire school day), and zero tolerance. Imagine getting punched in the face and THEN being expelled for it. And I’m not even talking about “rough inner-city schools” or whatever; this shit happened in the Berkshires.
Of course, all their security theatre commands a budget increase and attempts to instill a sense of fear of the state into students.
We’re worried about school board meetings being taken over now but the administrations went full right wing fascist 30 years ago.
And nobody cares because once they get through school, they never have to deal with it again. It’s an endless cycle of suffering, and nobody who is capable of stopping it is willing to do so.
Maybe its internet hokum, or maybe its real, I dont know.
by my favorite story I ever saw, that outlined how stupid the zero tolerance shit was, and how destructive it was, was a kid in the last year of highschool who moved over the weekend, and apparently a butterknife fell out of one of the boxes, and you could see if you really smashed your face up against the rear driver side window and looked really hard under the drivers seat… Which someone, apparently, did, and got the kid expelled for bringing dangerous weapons to school.
a butterknife isnt even a goddamn danger to butter. Muchless a human being. Especially when its locked in the goddamn car.
Funnily enough it had the opposite effect at my school
“If I’m getting suspended regardless, I’m going to stop it here and now.”
Yeah they had to repaint some walls due to blood on a number of occasions. And tear carpet out.
It’s was like the fucking thunderdome the moment shit started going down at my school.
Because bad parents. Kids who are bullies usually have parents who are bullies, and even when their kid is the instigator, they will defend their kid and bully teachers and administrators into lifting punishment. Zero tolerance means that discretion is removed and everyone is punished.
The changes in parents the last few decades is why schools are so awful.
Looking at it from the other side, it’s actually rare that an innocent kid is beat up without context.
Usually there’s 2 kids that have a beef and have been egging each other on for days. Eventually one kid says something and the other kid snaps and makes the first move but the second kid was just as guilty.
If you only look at “who started it” the second kid gets off scot free, while the first kid gets punished. Not really fair.
"Zero tolerance " attempts to fix this by recognizing that both kids likely played a part.
You are delusional to the highest degree. Kids in school don’t fight even, it’s one-sided 99% of the time.
The reason for this (and the rule) is bullying. Bullies fight bullied, and everyone gets suspended because “they were fighting”. Since you announced in advance that was the policy, this enables you to conveniently ignore the bullying that has taken place, and instead act as if all bullying-related fights (read: all fights pretty much) are simple fights that do not require any more attention because the issue has been dealth with with punishment.
In turn, this means that a bully who already has a bad rap and generally doesn’t care about grades or standing with school admin because both are already at rock bottom can target any one kid and make their admin standing rock bottom because it will appear as if that kid is fighting all the time and constantly suspended.
There’s no “other side”. The kid who initiated violence is the one in the wrong, even if the other one has been egging him on. “Oh but what if the egging on is one sided and the kid can’t take it anymore?” That is a symptom of your bullying reporting being garbage, not of the natural order of kids. If that kid is taking it out violently it means they’ve tried every other avenue including telling an adult and nothing has changed.
I’m not saying it’s right, just that’s their rationale. I literally discussed this with a middle school principal a few days ago and that was what she said.
Regardless of what you think about the policy, the fact is that your kids will have to abide by it.
Fact: if your kid is being bullied, they need to communicate to a person of authority. Answering a bully with violence is the wrong choice 99% of the time. They are usually bigger than you and have backup.
Also usually it doesn’t progress to a fight the very first time, usually it takes weeks, and during this time you would have many opportunities to tell a teacher or something.
Again, not advocating that this is right, but that’s their rationale.
Bullying is a one directional situation. It’s straight physical and mental abuse. And saying zero tolerance is right because it’s two way or the bullied kid can tell an adult is akin to saying a woman could just leave the man beating her.
It’s naive. It’s harmful. And it’s ineffective.
Your middle school principal you discussed with this is only a single administrator. I’m sure different schools have had various rationale for implementing the policy and any anecdotal response doesn’t speak to the entirety of school administrators.
And what I’m saying is that the school administrator has a vested interest in “removing bullying” by making all bullying-related in incidents be actually something else.
I agree that violence is never the answer, but maybe next time instead of talking to someone who wants to not have to deal with bullying, talk to the students who are being bullied. I guarantee you that every single one of them has tried to alert an adult and the reaction was either “well he’s not doing anything too bad so I can’t do anything” or “he’s been put in detention temporarily and I am the only one aware that it was related to bullying”.
Every single instance of kids fighting in schools can be fixed by having actual support systems in place against bullying. Figure out who the bullies are, and remove them from the bullied’s life. Treat bullying as we treat parental abuse currently, it should be unacceptable that a treacher knew what was happening and did nothing, yet it happens daily.
Fact: currently, if a kid is being is being bullied, they need to learn how to end a fight.
What exactly is a person of authority going to do of you go to them? If they are going to actually do anything, is that thing going to stop it? I guarantee it won’t. Their rational might be this, but as it stands either you are blissfully unaware of the reality of bulling or you are aware and simply do not care.
I ran afoul of this.
Someone came up and suckerpunched the absolute fuck out of me from behind, Was someone who I never even interacted with, commented towards, or even thought about. I still think, to this day, he just wanted to look like a bad ass by hitting the biggest kid in the grade.
Because they used a crutch to get around due to a gimpy leg, and because I was over a foot taller, I was deemed the aggressor… and no amount of witnesses saying otherwise would convince the principle of my innocence. and because the office was so convinced of it, no one in my family believed me either, so no one fought against it. I had to complete a program for “violent” teens before I was allowed to return to school… a program that was little more than slave labor in the hottest not-summer-break months, where I got accused of being a (gay slur) because only (Gay slur)'s drink their drinks the way I did, apparently. Was a super happy fun time learning experience.
I totally don’t still carry the rage and bitterness about it to this day at all. Nope. not at all.
Zero tolerance anything is just lazy and worthless. Only reason to implement is so you don’t have to think or acknowledge any nuance. Admin can just shrug their shoulders and go “Sorry nothing I can do. Zero tolerance.”
If they are truly zero tolerance then any teacher or security guard who steps in to break up the fight should also be suspended. They participated.
I always told my kid to fight back, and I’d have their back. More parents should be that way. Same way too many kids get beat up in HS because they were afraid to fight back.