https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u01AbiCn_Nw mental outlaw video:
hi everyone, i was planning on getting a new laptop cheaply for about 500ish but then i stumbled upon this near-totally modular laptop rhat starts out at above 1000 bucks. do you think the cheaper laptop in the long run is just a false economy and i should go for the framework or what? if you want to ask questions go ahead but im mainly concerned about the longterm financials (and how well it will keep up over time)
Hi, Framework laptop owner here!
I love my laptop. I got it back in June (13th gen Intel) and have used it near-daily ever since. It’s got a nice build quality, I like the way it looks, and the modular slots are a nice concept (though I haven’t seen a need to swap out mine- I elected for 2 x USB-C and 2 x USB-A. You also need to pay attention to which ports go where because not all the slots support USB charging). I bought the barebones laptop, and added my own RAM and SSD to it which was significantly cheaper than getting it from Framework. I currently dual boot Linux Mint and occasionally Windows 11 and have had no significant issues with either, but there are a couple of little annoyances with Mint- the light-sensor to automatically adjust the brightness and the brightness keys conflict, so one or the other or both may not work correctly.
To your real question, is it worth it? Honestly, if performance is your sole metric, then no- there are cheaper alternatives out there for comparable performance. The premium you pay for a Framework is an investment in repairability and customizability- investments that may not pay off if the company doesn’t exist in the long term. All the promises and commitments in the world to letting users have the right to fix or modify their own hardware mean nothing if there’s no one to supply parts. I was aware of this before buying mine, so I was fine accepting that risk- after all, at one point in time Tesla was risky too but now it seems they’re poised to be the charging standard for EVs- and there are a couple of higher-ups at AMD who like the concept and are invested in Framework, which means it may be around for a while. But that’s still something you should keep in mind.
That said, you said you were looking for a $500-ish laptop, and are now asking about one that will cost you over double that? It’s not for me to tell you how to spend your money, but it sounds like you saw a cool idea and want to jump on the bandwagon. You should be extra sure that what you’re looking for fits your needs within your budget and you’re not just trying to “keep up with the Joneses.”
TL;DR: If you have the money, and are okay with the risk of a small company existing long-term, and it has the performance you need, then yes, I think they’re good buys.
investments that may not pay off if the company doesn’t exist in the long term
FWIW, framework has open sourced all their schematics for building parts for their laptops. So in theory, even if they go under, other companies could continue building compatible parts.
Yep, there is that too. However, I expect that if Framework ever goes under, nobody else would build the parts because there’s nothing stopping any other company from making them right now.
do you need to biy usb c modules as theyre already 4 usb c’s built-in. also, how do i check if a memory stick will fit in befroehand
The memory modules are standard laptop SO-DIMM DDR4-3200 for the 13th Gen Intel (though the AMD version launching later this year will support DDR5). The storage slot is a standard M.2.
Do you absolutely need to buy the USB-C cards? Probably not, since the motherboard connections are USB-C. But you’re gonna have four gaps on the bottom of your laptop, it won’t be easy plugging or removing cables, and as someone else already said, the weight of a cord will put strain on the slot whereas the expansion cards put that strain on the case itself instead of the motherboard.
But they’re also only $9 each. The laptop itself is $1000+ and you wanna skimp out on $36 for expansion cards? If that’s where you’re looking at saving money, I’m seriously gonna suggest you look at other laptops that are much cheaper.
Expansion cards: In theory, no, you don’t need to buy USB-C modules but it’s highly recommended. At the back of each expansion card slot is a fully functional USB-C port that the card plugs into and if you need to, you can plug cables directly into them. But because those port are, as said, at the back of the expansion card slots, this means you’d have to turn your laptop upside down every time you want to plug something in. Also, accessories that are thicker than just a cable with a standard plug (such as USB-C flash drives, card readers, and so on) probably won’t fit. Another downside is that having four expansion card sized gaps under your laptop is just ugly.
I would highly recommend that you pick up at least four expansion cards so all slots are filled. My standard setup is 2x USB-C, 1x USB-A and 1x HDMI. I have another 1x USB-C, 1x USB-A and 1x ethernet in my backpack in case I need to swap something.
Memory: The type of memory you need depends on the mainboard you choose. The intel ones need DDR4-3200 SO-DIMMs, the AMD ones need DDR5-5600 SO-DIMMs. Note the difference between DIMM (physically larger, for desktop PCs) and SO-DIMM (physically smaller, for laptops). Capacity-wise, they all have space for two sticks of memory with up to 32 GB each. If you’re unsure, you can buy framework laptops with the RAM included. It’s a bit more expensive than buying separately but you can be sure everything fits.
To be honest you probably won’t save money as you’ll be more likely to upgrade regularly. I bought my Framework 13-inch last year and already bought a gorgeous new matte screen for it, and I’d been eyeing upgrading the mainboard with the new AMD one now. In the past with laptops I’d hold onto them for years until they couldn’t perform, and now I’m considering upgrading my device a second time within only a year?
I really do love my Framework, but the easier upgradability makes upgrading more likely, which means more expenses - unless you can restrain from upgrading more often than you would on a laptop. Since budget seems to be a concern for you this may be worth keeping in mind. On the other hand though, I’d be concerned about how long a $500 laptop will last you anyway (the ones I used for years were more like $1200).
One final thing - some parts can’t necessarily be carried over when upgrading to a new generation. For example, to upgrade to the AMD mainboard I’ll also have to buy new RAM as the generation upgraded to a newer variant. If I want to use my old mainboard as a home server, I’ll also have to purchase replacement parts for what it loses in the upgrade (new hard drive, new expansion ports, cheap case). It’s great if you had an existing need for a home server, not so much if you didn’t. Since I hate throwing out electronics I’ll end up buying more to keep it operational, even though in practice I won’t use it very much.
TL;dr - Framework makes upgrading and reuse cheaper and easier, which if you’re like me makes you spend more money and upgrade more frequently.
I mean, this logic could extend to desktop computers, and most people don’t upgrade theirs for years on end. But I can definitely see the sheer novelty of being able to do this with a laptop being a motivator…
There is one main difference in this comparison. If you upgrade your desktop consistently, those old parts are valuable on the used market, which can make the upgrades more affordable. Used laptop parts are less desirable due to their inoperability.
Depends… The SSD or RAM is just, well, an SSD or RAM. Maybe for those model specific hardware like monitor upgrades, yeah.
Personally, I’d like a framework with a dGPU option. Nothing big like an RTX 4 series, but just something more than the onboard UHD 630.Hey, what do you know, there’s an option for a detachable graphics module, hell yeah.
Could you also sell your 2nd hand old main board? That would lessen the blow of a new upgrade (considering you have no need for a home server).
I have thought about a framework laptop but my laptop is a humongous gaming laptop so I don’t think framework has the horsepower I’m looking for. The fact that it’s modular is soooooo tempting though…
They have an adapter that turns it into a desktop computer, sort of like an Intel NUC.
whos they?
Framework probably
I think its made by Framework and Coolermaster
Oh… You mean like buying it and using it as a modular desktop? That could be interesting but I don’t know if it’ll have the horse power I need anyways (for gaming). For a home server I bet it’ll be more than enough.
Also, I travel with my laptop somewhat frequently so a desktop wouldn’t be ideal (unfortunately. I prefer desktops over laptops)
You know the 16 has a detachable graphics module, right?
I did not… I just had a look at their page and you’re absolutely right. Fuck… I think my next laptop might just be a framework…
Sweet!
No it’s so you can do something with the motherboard when you replace it other than ewaste. Here’s the part. It’s only $40 but you need to add a couple parts like a wifi module. https://frame.work/products/cooler-master-mainboard-case
Might work well as a little media centre or server, after all the form factor is pretty slim. Me thinks if anyone wants a gaming laptop they might go for a specialised gaming laptop for that purpose.
I agree. I really do want a framework thought, the fact that it’s modular is so cool that it just makes me want to buy it… But the tech isn’t quite there yet for my needs. Hopefully one day :)
whats an intel NUC
Tiny desktop computer made from laptop components. https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/boards-kits/nuc/what-is-nuc-article.html
It’s not a bad option, but probably the best choice would be to just buy a new Framework entirely and sell the old one. Other than other home-labbers I’m not sure who’d be interested in buying a last-generation Framework mainboard, as anyone with a Framework already would likely upgrade to the latest.
Big laptops aren’t really my thing, but you may be interested in the 16-inch Framework that’s coming out as it has a slot for a dedicated GPU.
There is a market on eBay, but the longer you sit on it, the less it will sell for.
People have broken parts they need to replace, and there’s a semi-active community of people who use framework parts to create mini-servers that need a little more power than a Pi.
Not selling when you don’t need it is just hording.
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You could either sell the old mainboard or turn it in to a server imo or if you’re really hardware knowledgable take up the challenge of making a discount lenovo yoga book 9i
Hi. Let’s set the table here. Context: What future advantage or benefit do you expect to get by investing?
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Your budget was initially $500.
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The absolute cheapest you can have a brand-new complete Frame Work 16 is $1,621 and 5 to 8 months (Ships Q2) assuming you get the cheapest of everything and don’t purchase secondary storage. You will have a low-end laptop with the ability to trivially upgrade it later.
For an additional $1,100 what do you expect to gain? In reality you can get an equivalent performance for $200, so the question then becomes $1,300 for what?
For $2,187 you can have an equivalent to this $1,100 ThinkPad that will likely last you 7-10 years unless it breaks first. What are you investing in for $1,087?
For $2,734 and ~8 months, I can have a high-end laptop, not the most expensive options, but my personal preference to tide me over for 10 years. Is whatever I’m looking for worth $2,200? Possibly.
- For hardware I can have schematics to, after signing an NDA.
- For hackability.
- For a laptop I won’t void the warranty for fixing.
- For never having to remove 17 screw, 5 stickers, 5 more screws, an excessive amount of plastic tabs, and possibly adhesive.
- For almost indefinite access to parts. Parts that won’t disappear from the market in 1-3 years, unless the company goes under. (Yay Cali for the 7 years of parts… we’ll see how toothy it is and how long it can withstand legal and technical sabotage. Like Apple’s software locks.)
- For a laptop with parts I like. (AMD open-sourcing like mad-lads, but not quite FLOSSing.)
- For a company that I can trust for a decade before they see the dollar dollar bills. Like Google, Facebook, Reddit, etc.
- For sustainably sourced parts.
- To support a company that won’t put me through a hoop circus just to tell me I have to buy a new product because they screwed up?
If I could get it in 30 days, maybe. If I have to wait a financial quarter, or 2, and a half… maybe I’ll wait until they ramp up production, and see what innovations they have in a year. (Related: The week I decided to buy, was legitimately the day they opened for Framework 16 orders, which I would’ve sworn was Framework 15. Must be losing my mind. In any case, maybe I’ll still get the 13 and save $500.)
Is it worth it for you? Depends on your financial situation and what you value.
In theory, you’re paying up front for their long-term loss by not driving conspicuous consumption with planned obsolescence. They lose out on at least 4x the cost of selling you entirely new devices every 5 years, and you get a computer that only requires a few hundred in repairs for the next 20 years.
In reality:
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new standards take hold all the time. Sorry, your laptop takes DDR7 RAM, everyone’s moved on to DDR10—which won’t cause a noticeable performance improvement, but it will give you FOMO because the numbers are bigger. So we’ve ceased manufacturing those old DDR7s; good luck with used DIMMs on ebay.
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Startups with amazing business models go under all the time. Sure, it may be “bad market strategy,” aka not being money-grubbing scrooges, and the resultant investor pull-out. It might be a lack of hype outside a niche market. It might be a hurricane. Too bad, ypur “lifetime” computer now has no one manufacturing parts. See also: what happens to early adopters of robotic prosthetics.
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Enshittification, plain and simple. That idealistic company that was going to defeat the ills of capitalism by beating it at its own game? Well now the investors want their money, and the shareholders are upset as their stocks plummet. Time to start cutting costs and fucking over the users! Suddenly we’re okay with child slavery and nonfree firmware because it doesn’t violate our core value of sustainable laptops probably. Have a subscription about it.
And the longer it lasts, the more likely one or more of the above is to happen.
If you don’t mind that and just want to “send a message,” then go ahead. The more viable (profitable) Framework is, the more likely it is others will follow suit.
If you’re really just worried about e-waste and sustainable tech, buy used and fix it up. We’re past the point of Moore’s law where you’re missing out on meaningful performance gains if your device is a few years old, and have you see what people will throw away just because the screen is cracked?
If it’s about ethical business models, support non-profits. They don’t have the same financial incentive to enshittify. (They just have their own ecosystem of ethical issues)
Or get two birds stoned at once by joining/starting a non-profit tech mutual aid network, where you help maintain and upgrade each others’ tech.
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apple software locks?
Some parts are now signed and can be associated to the device by Apple alone, so that third-party repair parts or even replaced official parts don’t work if the repair is not done by Apple.
oh god thats fucking evil, i thought uou meant some proproetary screw or some shit
They’ve done that one too. The software locks are just the most recent iteration.
If you’d like to see a demonstration, watch this video on last gen iPhone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2WhU77ihw8
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=K2WhU77ihw8
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
I’m an Offical Apple phone repair tech. A lot of things stop working once you place new parts in, things that have even thrown me for a loop and made me think I did the repair wrong. I replaced a display, and the vibration and camera stopped working properly. I thought I damaged the haptic feedback motor (That I didn’t even remove) You have to sign into apple’s repair website, and ‘run a diagnostic’ in order to get the vibration function to work again after you swap a part on some models. They all do some weird shit.
Sometimes swapping a camera on a model will cause the camera in app to run at like 3 fps or Face ID will stop working until you validate the parts on their repair site. It’s shit.
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framework is VERY worth it.
modular slots on the side mean you can choose your inputs and where they go.everything inside the laptop is easily replaceable so if any individual part breaks you can replace it instead of the whole laptop. you can also easily make upgrades if better hardware comes out instead of waiting for a newer model if one ever comes out.
how do the modular slots get inputted? if i wanted a usb a one is it a usb a to c converter and if so wojld i need to buy a usb c slot?
all of the modular slots connect by USB C at the front.
you can see what they look like here:
https://frame.work/gb/en/marketplace/expansion-cardsI believe the slots are all USB-C, since they’d need to be the fastest currently possible connector to properly support all the others.
If you wanted a USB-A slot you just need to buy the USB-A module.
since they’d need to be the fastest
“USB C” only describes the connector and has nothing to do with speed.
Yes and no. USB-C is “the faster connector” compared to USB-A 3 because it supports faster protocols like USB 4 and even Thunderbolt 5. USB-A does not. It tops out at USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 (gawd what an awful naming scheme) with 20Gbps and even that’s rare. The newer, faster protocols with 40Gbps (USB4) or even 120Gbps (TB5) need the USB-C connector.
It supports faster protocols, yes. But “USB-C” on it’s own just defines the plug and the socket, and nothing more. That the hardware supports faster protocols does not mean that it can be used to describe a faster connection.
It’s nitpicking, but it is important nitpicking 🙃
The point here, for those downvoting this post, is that if you go out and buy something “with USB-C” it could for example only support the Low Speed rate of USB 1.0 (that’s all of 1.5Mbps, only good for stuff like mice and keyboards) and still be absolutelly legitimatelly be listed for sale as “having USB-C” because that’s just the connector format.
(Actually it’s even worse, as there is a charge only mode for that connector which does not require supporting any USB data modes at all)
There is indeed a connection between the connector (pun not intended) and the maximum speeds supported (but not necessarily present) because USB-C adds additional data lines not present in USB-A or any of the USB-B connectors, which allow higher data throughtput, but the connection is only in the direction of “higher speeds require USB-C”, not “USB-C implies higher speeds”.
All this to say that, IMHO, the previoua poster is right in calling attention to the difference.
Yeah I’m aware but you cannot support the fastest speeds without the additional contacts a type C port provides; unless they went with a proprietary port they wouldn’t be able to do the faster USB speeds.
So while type C doesn’t mean fast by itself, it does allow the capability to carry just about anything.
but if i wanted a usb c slot it’d be best not to even buy one and just use the ones built in already
you can do that but I would recommend against it. it might put strain on that port and if it breaks or is damaged you won’t be able to use that slot for anything else
Plus the built in USB c slots are recessed underneath which might be a pain to plug and unplug things.
bought a refurbished 5 year old Thinkpad via Amazon for $150. put linux on it, no regrets
Second hand ThinkPads are the way to go
I wanna do this and use it for my home assistant server.
How’d you find it on Amazon?
what should i look for when buying a thinkpad
A good general rule of thumb is to avoid the E and L series, and stick with the X, T or P series, or the X1 Carbons. Depending on your use case, choose one with the processor and display you want.
I have a T460 with linux on it that I use for work and it has been rock solid even when I spilled coffee on it.
I have an E560, I like it, but I’m not will versed enough to know why I shouldn’t. So why did I make a terrible decision? :P
i was planning on getting a new laptop cheaply for about 500ish
What are you hoping to do with it? I got a used Thinkpad T480 that was like new for €180 and added a couple of upgrades to it (1TB NVMe, 64GB RAM, Intel AX200 Wi-Fi card) that cost me €137, meaning a total of €317, and I’m very happy with the laptop right now, it’s very responsive with Arch Linux and an i3 desktop and I think this baby will be good for many years.
I third that motion. Doing similar with a T440p. I’ve spent $400 total between upgrading the CPU to a 4712 and putting 16g of RAM. Running WoW happily every night on Debian. Second hand Thinkpads are the way to go.
Congrats on still rocking a laptop that’s 10 years old!
Seconding a used Thinkpad. They are plenty modular/repairable compared to other laptops. I’ve got an X270 and it’s a great little machine.
where do you find used thinkpads online?
I’ve bought about a dozen from friends and family.
Search on eBay.
Find a seller with many of the same model. These are tech contractors offloading the laptops they just replaced under some contract - you’ll get a laptop that’s been sitting in some managers drawer for the last 3 years.
Next go to the contractors own website, not ebay. See what stuff they have.
I usually email them and just try to express interest in buying 2 or more laptops, ask what peripherals they have - get a dock or something. Ask about RAM or SSD upgrades, things like that.
You’re helping them offload their second hand stuff, avoid ebay fees, not being a dick.
There are various ebay sellers who carry certified refurbished laptops with warranty included. You can also buy some directly from Lenovo.
Seconded, I have been very happy with my last 2 purchases of Acer refurbished laptops from the official Acer store on eBay.
Amazon sells used thinkpads other than general age of the hardware love mine that I got for about $300
Got mine on Ebay, and you usually have to be careful like with any purchase of a used item: ask for detailed photos if you can’t judge the state of the item from the photos that are there, ask questions about things that were left out in the description, look for sellers with very good ratings and look at their reviews, see if you can return etc…
Amazon also sells refurbished ones, but so far I’ve seen the best deals on Ebay.
EDIT: important, make sure the BIOS is unlocked.
I’ve got a X270 and it’s a great little machine.
Same. X380 here. Cost ~$200 refurb a yearish ago. Love it so much I steered my mom onto one a couple months back, and she’s been loving it too. Manjaro on mine and Win10 on hers, both great little performers. They fall short on tasks you expect to need some grunt for, but are great for everything else. I recommend it for anyone who will listen.
Having said that, I really am eyeballing the framework to be in the running the next time I’m in the market. Whenever I reach that point I’ll need to do some comparisons. I could theoretically be convinced to spend a bit more to enable ongoing piecemeal upgrades, desktop-style.
whats so good about arch? is it faster?
due to the nature of arch and its rolling releases, it tends to get bleeding edge updates/features rather than having to wait for a major update to iron itself out then get rolled out. If you’re a gamer for example, if Valve fixes a bug in the gpu driver, then Arch would probably get it asap (especially given that Steam OS is arch based)
It’s just another distro that has gained a following more because of some perceived superiority than any truly practical reason. If you’re new to Linux I wouldn’t recommend it.
You have the freedom to customize it how you want. The downside is that you have to customize and install everything yourself. A happy compromise is to get an arch based distro which handles a lot of the main stuff, my current favorite is endevour os.
but cant you customise any distro yourself?
Yes, but with arch you have to because you have to set it up yourself. In all seriousness, arch is a great base but unless you have the patience and knowledge to set it up yourself, staying with arch based distros (like Manjaro) is much easier. And if you’re new to Linux in general but actually wanna try it, start with something like Mint. It’s fast, stable, easy to work with and this a good entry point
but cant you customise any distro yourself?
Yes, but that’s not the same thing as “all distros are really the same” just to be clear.
Some folks would have to spend so much time ripping things out of Ubuntu or Fedora etc that it’s much easier to build Arch with only what they want.
There are other benefits, but like everything else, not everyone cares about the same things.
If you feel like no distro does things the way you’d prefer, Arch may be for you. If you have no complaints about whatever distro you use, there’s probably not any reason to jump ship to Arch.
Here are a few articles.
https://www.systranbox.com/an-introduction-to-arch-linux-exploring-its-features-and-benefits/
https://linuxiac.com/archlinux/
The better way to say it is you need to build Arch youself. Other distros you can customize after installation, but you need to install Arch piece by piece by yourself. Hence the suggestion to go with EndeavorOS which makes installation easier.
What’s good about it is that if you know what you’re doing you can install only what you need and keep your system small and tidy. Also, since it’s a rolling distro, updates become available really quick and sometimes some of the updates introduce optimizations (meaning more performance) or better power consumption. And finally of course Arch has also an amazing wiki, they have hands down the best Linux documentation along with Gentoo, and they even have a page about Thinkpads: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Laptop/Lenovo
Found it! surprised this wasn’t the top comment
there will always be a Thinkpad nerd to do the shilling in a laptops thread, just doing my job 😎
based and thinkpilled
That’s amazing, but not reasonably indicative of the specs we’ll normally find for that price.
The specs that I have now are due to the upgrades I’ve listed: the NVMe is a WD_BLUE SN570 1TB, and the RAM sticks are Patriot Memory DDR4 3200Mhz, both bought new on Amazon, and then there’s the AX200 Wi-Fi card that I bought used (you could also spend €5 more and buy it new but I didn’t see the point in doing that).
The base laptop (the one I bought for €180) has an 8th gen i5 and came with 8GB of RAM (single stick), and you can find these specs below €200 on Ebay (very good chance if you also participate in the many auctions that are there, as an example here’s one if you’re in the US: https://www.ebay.com/itm/266452790554).
This is the answer OP. Or similarly, I lined up a T14S Gen 1 for $299 with a 2 year warranty included on eBay. 10th gen i5, 16GB RAM, 512GN NVMe.
Here’s a random one I found. Touchscreen too if you like that, but slightly over $300.
i was planning on getting a new laptop cheaply for about 500ish
You should plan for what you need, not for what you’re willing to pay. If you need a mobile workstation then this 16 inch laptop would be too large and heavy. If you aim for a desktop replacement, then a 13 inch laptop might be too small (docking stations exist, but still …).
The Framework laptop is a nice idea, though. But to be honest: how often did you change the components of your laptops before? One usually changes the SSD and maybe the RAM or the battery or - if you’re really adventurous - the heatpipe and/or the fan. All of this is already possible with most common laptops. If you’re unsure, get a ThinkPad.
How often did you change the components of your laptop before?
Well that’s the point, ain’t it? You didn’t because you couldn’t. Now this laptop gives you a new plethora of opportunities.
Thought the same thing. Over time I replaced everything in my laptop that I could and specifically chose a laptop that is easyish to open and get parts for.
I would love for a better processor and graphics card but the mainboard and power supply does not allow for better hardware. So I will need to buy a different laptop some day. If it were as easy as ordering new parts and putting it in there without fear of incompatibility I would love that.
I’ve changed the screen of a thinkpad from 720p to 1080p. Was cheaper to buy that way, and it was really easy to do.
I think you’re missing the point of the framework. Let’s say 6 years from now you want to upgrade to a more powerful CPU. Normally that means buying a whole new laptop. With the framework though you just buy a new board and keep all the other components. This saves money and lowers ewaste.
Is that realistic? Not a rhetorical question: I’m genuinely curious. I ask because the last time I tried to update a single (desktop) part, it was more cost-effective to replace the whole Pc and migrate the salvageable parts since the only thing I could have held onto would have been the ram, SSD, and PSU.
I suppose with a laptop you have the monitor to also consider, and admittedly I know nothing about laptop boards, but it just seems like 6 years is replacement time anyway, at least for a daily use computer.
When you replaced your whole PC what did you do with the replaced part?
The last time I replaced my PC the hardware was ca 12 years old and barely working. It went to the recycling center except the harddisk.
Honestly, we don’t know. Average laptop screens haven’t had any major improvements since IPS, so I think the screens have longevity. RAM and processors are more focused on lower power nowadays. Framework has already shipped “drop-in” replacement boards, and their whole company is based around that idea.
If I had the money and i could afford to wait, I’d be willing to take a bet on Framework. I think the frame of the laptop will hold up as well as any other, but it’s only been a few years so who actually knows.
Laptops from 6 years ago hold up well enough, except the batteries and main boards, if I could have replaced my old main board with a more modern processor and gpu I never would have had to upgrade.
So far as your desktop, you can certainly upgrade your computer without it being more cost effective to do a whole new build. It really just depends on what you need. Mostly it comes down to the limitations of your motherboard.
Every so often they change the CPU socket required for new CPUs. So if you need a new CPU and you already have the best the socket on your mobo can do, then yeah you’re maybe looking at a new build at that point anyway. But otherwise you can just get an upgraded CPU of that socket. Similarly, eventually your motherboard won’t be able to support the latest version of RAM and if you need that you’ll have to replace the motherboard. So on and so forth.
Great in theory.
Keeping backwards compatible hardware is nearly impossible in reality. USB A 3.x is not the same hardware as USB A 2.X despite keeping form-factor backwards compatible.
Practical exercise: Find a board capable of swapping DDR4 RAM with DDR5 or vice versa.
It goes a bit further than that. When the CPU is too old and slow you can just slap in a newer board without having to buy a full machine. Still can’t answer if it’s worth it for OP though.
ThinkPads continue to be less and less user serviceable and Linux support more quirky (especially on their AMD line). It’s all I’ve used but I sold my recent gen to get an older one and will probably go with a different vendor in the future.
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Yep. When the devices get older, I usually upgrade RAM (or install an SSD on very old hardware). Sometimes I even install a new battery.
And that’s the thing: I never ever had any issues doing this. Even the internal battery is just screwed in and connected with a removable plug.
While the Framework laptops are conceptually great, I just don’t see the use case in my world. It’s also pretty much vendor lock-in with the modules.
No.
I don’t trust a single modern platform to last long enough to justify an investment - the company will be acquired and shuttered or the base platform will be upgraded and the current deprecated. The company today can full-throatedly promise you the world, but they know they won’t be here tomorrow to answer for those promises and there are no consumer safeguards in place to hold the future leaders accountable should framework show profit potential and therefore become a target of acquisition to exploit that potential or to squash competition.
Framework is a fun, marketable idea, but Phonebloks / Project Ara me once, shame on you…
I never really saw a computer as an “investment”. They’re pure expenses as far as I’m concerned. Any of the ones I buy could break tomorrow. I don’t buy extended warranties, so outside the legal coverage, I’m SOL if something goes wrong anyway. Considering how bad repairability is with other brands anyway, it’s not like you’re throwing away much. Many of the components are just standard hardware, too - RAM, SSD…
Considering this, I don’t really see why I would deprive myself of buying something rather novel I’m interested in, given the product already showed some reliability, in fear of some potential hostile corporate takeover. YMMV, of course.
I agree. $500 to $1200 is the range at which I would not buy a warranty beyond the initial 12 months. I have purchased (and used) warranties for Mac laptops or PC desktops for work that cost over $2k. I can justify it on the Mac because there is usually one recall issue that needs repair (eg weird keyboard issue) but they otherwise have a long life. I’m at 5 years on my current machine with no plans to update. So many of the existing Framework laptops don’t have GPUs that I can’t understand why anyone would be excited about it. It’s a fun idea but feels like you’re paying a lot of money for the opportunity to pay more in the future.
Eh, I’m a fan of the principle that things should be serviceable. Framework is great in that regard. As for GPUs - my laptops are mostly work machines, and I don’t really need one past just displaying on multiple monitors and UHD/4k support, so most iGPUs are just fine for me. When it comes to laptops, tons of RAM+a decent build quality >>> most other things for me.
I’m in a similar situation as you are though, my current laptop is from 2018 and I don’t have any plans to upgrade short-term.
I think the best part of the Framework is that the parts are replaceable for sure. The keyboard replacement I got was free but if it weren’t it would be several hundred dollars. My dad had a key broken on his laptop and they asked for $700 to fix it. Absurd.
They’ve kept up for three generations, I don’t see why they’d stop now.
Even if you just got one upgrade out of it, it’s probably worth the cost of entry.
I appreciate the healthy skepticism of typical business cycles, but at the same time - why would you buy the company and not sell upgrade parts to previous customers? If you didn’t, you’d just own an overpriced laptop company amongst a dozen other cheap laptop companies.
To end competition. Brand loyalty. Poor vision. Many reasons, none of them very kind.
As others have pointed out, to kill competition and about paradigm shift. All, from their broken POV, so you can ideally eventually sell cheap laptops/phones shitty enough to warrant annual refresh (aka, the holy grail)
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Ara was the kill, Phonebloks was first hope and the actual promise that was suffocated by Google in that instance - we’ll absolutely count this here.
Huh, that’s a good take! Didn’t think about that.
It kind reminds me of the Oneplus brand. I loved the one plus (1) so I bought a Oneplus2 only for it to be put aside fairly quickly. I remember I used to suggest Oneplus to everybody, eventually I told everyone to stay away… Eventually the brand just lost it’s focus imo… Instead trying to pump out as much overpriced garbage as possible…
It’s a subsidiary of Oppo, they just tried different brands to corner the market. OnePlus attracted the purists but money reigns and they thought they had a loyal fan base and started changing. Most people would probably say stick to pixel phones for the stock Google Android experience. I liked my OnePlus 5, it lasted for a long time. Never smashed despite being dropped all the time. Just the usb c port lost its connectivity after a few years and needed replacing.
Yep I moved from Oneplus to Xiaomi and I can’t day I’m disappointed but I’m feeling they are charging more and more and then phones aren’t getting that much better. I think my next phone will be a pixel. Mostly for the camera. As I’m getting older I notice that I don’t use my phone for too much other than photos of traveling or just messaging my friends and family on WhatsApp. Games on phone are absolute cancer anyways…
They have been here tomorrow for people who bough one with an 11th generation Intel CPU in 2021. I don’t think they are looking to get acquired either.
Companies that are looking to get acquired don’t hold press conferences to announce, “we’re now ready to be acquired”. They typically build and acquire press wins to get attention until they are a thorn in the side of a market leader who then takes a meeting with them. It’s a quiet process, but the initial conversation is almost exclusively, “we’re building this for the long term and we plan to be around for a long time”.
Just like all the products that promise long or even “lifetime” warranties - for most of these tech startups, they are well aware that lifetime means “OUR” short lifetime as a company and not your lifetime as the consumer.
Likely, but I’m hoping they last a decade like usual. I’m only slight jaded, and have similar reservations from similar history. Google, Apple, Facebook, and Reddit all had similar ideals. (“Don’t Be Evil.” Part of open source before it was popular. “It’s your data. You control your data.” Freedom of speech/information and, “Bits are not a bug.”) [Insert Joke: “My back hurts” or “Get off my lawn.”]
The good news is Framwork is priced at near parity of Apple’s products, which makes them unlikely to be bought out; they’re much more likely to get too greedy, and compromise on their ideals.
For me the deal breaker is to wait for so long before getting it. They have to step up the production. I’m fine with waiting for one month and can understand. But, the actual waiting time is ridiculous.
I suppose that depends on how urgently you need a new computer. I waited several weeks for one of the first releases, but have been using it the last two years and it has been well worth it. I accidentally smashed the case when it slipped out of my bag on concrete and was thankful I got a framework when I was just able to swap it with a new shell of their marketplace within a week
As I wrote, one month is fine. If it’s one or two weeks more, it’s ok. But, the actual waiting time is 6 months.
I get the enthousiast, niche, etc. I’m in niche things too. But, at a certain moment, you need to step up.
The waiting time heavily depends on whether you want Intel or Ryzen, and whether you want 13 or 16 inch.
13 inch Intel should ship pretty much instant even now as far as I know, the just released Ryzen now has to catch up with pre-orders first, and 16" isn’t yet released AFAIK.
I bought a refurbished 11th gen Intel back in March and that got here in just a few days and I can’t say anything about it didn’t feel brand new. Have been using it almost daily since.
I’m seriously thinking about investing in one…I really like the idea of being able to upgrade and change the system and I/O ports. I also am beginning to think I want to switch to Linux over Windows as it gets more and more invasive.
For 1600 hopefully you get a frame and a long term use repairable machine you can upgrade as needed for years.
You can look online at what the upgrade parts cost. If you were upgrading to the AMD main board you’re looking at $450-$700, versus $1200-1550 buying it new. The Intel i5 components are similar but i7 are a bit more expensive. Thus far they have been consistent about releasing upgraded components. You are locked in to buying from them though - so if they stop releasing upgrades you’re out of luck.
If you don’t need the latest and greatest, going used is going to still be a better value proposition.
I’m interested in a framework laptop for the environmental perspective, but I also think a pre-owned high end device would be faster and with smaller impact.
This question comes up for me quite a bit. It’s great that project like this exist, but if the project fails, does the environmental impact of the parts become just as bad as any other electronic device because there’s no longer a project coordinating the manufacturing of replacement parts?
Additionally, refurbished Lenovo Thinkpads, while obviously not nearly as customizable/modifiable, may (emphasis on may) have a longer shelf life due to build quality (as well as general care and maintenance by the user), and are probably easily repairable by hardware repair shops.
Environmental Impact, Longevity, and Cost should be the major priorities for the conscientious discerning tech consumer, and imho in that specific order.
In my opinion, the Framework laptop is great for people who want the newest and fastest CPUs, whule also getting the customizability and repairability. I mean yeah, I’d buy an older Thinkpad, but programming in C doesn’t require much compute power or RAM. However, my graphic design and video editor friends won’t make a living using the same machine as I do. For them, the Framework is miles better than any other brand new machine with the same specs (if they want repairability, etc.).
The environmental impact of the parts is already just as bad as any other laptop.
Pollution happens at the point of production!
If a person were worried about the environmental impact, a glass and aluminum mac would be the better choice. Replacing a bunch of plastic with easily and efficiently recyclable metal and glass has a huge impact.
Not trying to poopoo on anyone here, but it seems neat… But at double your budget it’s just a neat toy. Can you afford that? If so, hell yes.
Otherwise you can find second hand laptops with great specs and upgrade that your self for cheaper.
I wish I could pull the trigger on one of these, but here I am just surfing eBay lol
Yeah got a 14" ThinkPad 8gen 16GB 512GB SSD for Under 200€. Lots of connectics too. It’s crazy IMO.
I mean if OP got the money why not but economy wise nah there are better plans :-D
Where did you get your cheap Thinkpad?
On Leboncoin, a french site a bit like eBay, or Blocket if you’re Swedish.
Merci, then. I’m from Germany but people use eBay and kleinanzeigen.de (“classified ads”/“petites annonces”) here. I suppose you bought it used at that price? I’m faced with the same choices. My old Thinkpad is going to break down, soon. The Framework laptop looks very appealing, but a refurbished (newer than mine) Thinkpad would be nice, too. I even have a company that sells refurbished computers in my city. But they currently sell similar specs like you mentioned for around 300€ (and above). Thanks for the input. I’m going to wait until they do a sale or something catches my eye on eBay.
Sounds like the same type of site, and yeah I think I got lucky, I probably got twice the RAM and SSD for the price I paid.
Be patient (or chuck in some extra money) and you’ll find one too I’m sure!
BTW you can buy different keyboards who are supposedly easy to change, if you find a non-German one.
Simple answer yes long answer maybe
The only downsides of framework that I have heard about are all software related bugs, meaning it just needs an update once a fix is released. As an example I heard it had some power management issues where the expandable slots drained the battery even is sleep mode, not sure if it was fix yet, but regardless it still sounds like a solid investment.
pretty sure another is theyre trying to get coreboot working on it
