Ie not vegan@lemmy.world.
Edit: I am going to try to start my own for now here https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/plantbased
The entire “problem” with veganism is that almost anything which starts with such an inflexible moral imperative ends up becoming militant, specifically because that rigidity quickly becomes at odds with more practical and functional versions of the idea.
Like so many similar ethics, veganism doesn’t really concern itself with creating a practical or actionable roadmap for how food supply chains can be iteratively modified towards the goal of reducing animal suffering. Militant moralists, in fact, tend to avoid such things specifically because they demand a framework of accountable progress. Demanding radical and unrealistic measures be taken, and then condemning those who express skepticism or hostility of this idea is much easier. Like a religion.
the entire problem with your comment is that you are using vague language and not defining your terms. as a result, you have presented unfalsifiable theory.
no one should believe anything you’ve written here.
Poor people are adversely affected by green washing because the prices of meat and dairy free alternatives force their families out of the price range. The of introducing plant based alternatives to grocery stores with gentrification in poor areas has been a significant issue that is downplayed because tech-WASPs want to buy out the neighborhoods anyway.
Silicon valley is radiating out of the city and families that have been living in Oakland and Richmond have been getting priced out of the area. It’s not that veganism is the problem, it’s that veganism is expensive and isn’t subsidized while also making traditional food harder to acquire. Since the price has risen for luxury products and the stores are higher scale, prices for basic products also rise. It’s happening in Portland and Eugene too, and I’m sure wherever tech is booming.
Again, it’s not specifically veganism. It’s a bit of a byproduct of the type of people. The traditional families that are being priced out are also vegans and non-dietary restricted families. It’s the green washing to force poor families out of areas rich people choose to live, literally weaponizing veganism. Also yt veganism, as if minority families haven’t been living vegan for decades already.
Finally, I also don’t entirely agree with the other user but a point I think they may have been trying to make is the difference between factory farmed and locally sourced. For some it is about harm to the animals full stop, to which point not all local farms that sell dairy harm their livestock. The goal should be harm reduction so anyone moving away from factory farms to local farms should be encouraged, but it’s common to get responses that reject even that, which in turn only bolsters factory farmings position as local farms get further eroded from lack of local support.
All in all, don’t let yt veganism replace actual vegan philosophy and please respect indigenous traditional practices. We should be aiming to move back to these practices in the industry to scale it down, not replacing them with soy/almond/oat milk that’s 4x more expensive and pricing families out of neighborhoods
more non falsifiable vaguery
K.
Eh, veganism is quite clear in that it doesn’t support the use of any animal products. If one doesn’t live by that fully everyday there is still benefit to doing it in part.
You’re also wrong about vegans not being concerned about supply chain ie how people get there food and how it affects people and animals.
There’s no problems with morals lol. Are you going to argue that not killing is like a religion?
You can’t think of any valid reason to kill?
Instance agnostic link:
!plantbased@lemmy.dbzer0.comThanks
What do you mean by “militant and rude?”
Not accepting that people need time to adjust and maybe go vegan in smaller steps. There is even hostility towards people who look for fake meat or dare to say they like the taste of meat even though they still want to avoid eating it. Just generally being assholes and gatekeepers.
That’s been my experience too. I’m trying to eat less meat and find alternatives that work for me, but it apparently has to be all or fuck you for some. I know it’s not everyone, but somehow they seem the loudest and it’s not very helpful.
i completely agree, i just dislike the flavour of protein in general, it’s hard to find things that i like and maybe a lot of vegan options just don’t hide the bean taste enough for me either, the most processed meat has always been the most edible to me and i love a lot of vegan processed options as well, but when faced with the $2 sausages or the $7 sausages, it shouldn’t be expected to be the easiest choice for a shopper to make imo, i love anyone willing to take up that front for sure, but it’s funny just how willing some people seem to be to alienate people entirely from something that could only grow the gateway into the movement
i only eat so much quinoa and soba because it’s quicker to eat and doesn’t taste like meat or beans which are both honestly pretty good if they’re done right, but i don’t have the time or money, i look forward to the days of cheaper vegan options but we’re still a ways off and i splurge just whenever i can
also, if someone ever comes out with a vegan lil’ smokies (not a bbq carrot), and if someone remembers this post, pls msg me cause i would actually pay up to $12 a pack to fund the mission for something good and gross and easy like that for a litl potluck or even just for me with some mustard and pillsbury crescents -_-
This is a natural consequence of always being attacked by non-vegans, patience is thin and communities are maintained by the ones who remain. Unlike, say, gaming, veganism is constantly attacked, so it’s harder for them to be more inclusive than a gaming community would be.
Seems a bit like a vicious circle to me. Hate against vegans leading to a hateful reaction, leading to vegans being perceived as assholes, leading to more hate against vegans etc. I guess it’s understandable, but it also seems counterproductive for spreading veganism.
Anecdotally, as a vegetarian I can say that the most vicious attacks against my lifestyle were not by meat eaters but some vegans (online-vegans to be precise, all I’ve met IRL were nice people). That’s despite me certainly never attacking veganism, I even think it’s morally superior to vegetarianism.
I really think this is an incredibly insightful take. I can’t say I hang out in many vegan specific corners of the Internet, but I know there is a very active and vocal segment of the Internet community that’s anti-vegan, I’ve heard stories of coordinated brigading attempts against vegan communities on the Internet.
I’d imagine it would be almost impossible to run an open and welcoming community when you are getting constantly inundated with hate messages, eventually it would become incredibly difficult to discern between a user who has genuine curiosity and one who is asking bad faith questions in order to trigger some kind of debate.
At this point in time you couldn’t pay me to become a mod in one of those communities, it really seems like a no win scenario.
It’s certainly a contradiction, understanding the true nature of the problem is the first step to fixing it.
Yup.
Eventually, maybe less aggro people will join and the cycle will break. Being ovo-lacto-veg is cool now. Or maybe not, because veganism isn’t based on ideas that modern people already agree with, but rather suggests a whole new system for how animals should be treated. Like, they’re against continuing to keep dogs as pets.
Here is the thing, I was a vegetarian who was exposed to vegan “bullying” and it pushed me to veganism after seeing the contradictions between what I said and what I was doing. Not only did it work on me, literally hundreds of people have thanked me for helping them go vegan when I ran vegan circlejerk on reddit over the course of years.
No one tactic works, if you knew how to make vegans, you’d be vegan. For some people the vegan circlejerk style activism works with receipts, for others not so much. There is no right answer. If there was one correct way to promote and build veganism then the world would already be vegan.
I know for a fact though that I’ve helped 3 people in my own life and have received tons of messages in appreciation for what I did. No other social justice won supporters by being nice either. Civil rights are not gained by asking nicely.
None of the vegans I know in real life are as hostile as some vegans get online. Probably a majority of vegans I see online (or in interviews, articles, etc.) aren’t hostile. The hostility is coming mostly from vegans who think it’s a useful tactic to get others to agree with them.
It’s a whole other discussion about how effective that tactic is, or who it’s effective on. But it is definitely a choice, because there are tons of vegans out there who choose to present their ideas differently.
G*mers are actually the most oppressed minority
🫠
Also, a lot of people that join fringe movements have a personality that craves conflict, and it becomes an outlet for it.
Non-carnism isn’t really so fringe anymore, but that’s pretty new, and may not have reached veganism specifically.
This is the thing. You will find that close to 100% of the people defending militant veganism here are militant about other things as well. Some of these names are pretty familiar.
This attitude is the entire problem. You know exactly what OP means, but you pretend like the reputation the vegan community has nothing to do with the community itself.
Previously I found that they were staunchly anti-anything but vegan and carried over said rudeness from the reddit communities. As a vegan myself it was a big turn off. I asked about this and they banned me. Reminiscent of lemmygrad on anything but their specific MLM ideology.
Lemmygrad aren’t MLM, they are ML with Dengist sympathies and are anti-Gonzaloist, but regardless most Vegans on the fediverse are Vegan because of strict ethical and moral reasons and believe in full animal liberation. It’s hard to take a half-way stance on that matter with that frame of mind, which can manifest itself in “rudeness.” Additionally, most Vegans experience tons of hostility, making them more defensive by default.
That makes sense about lemmygrad’s odd takes.
As a vegan I fully get that, but most vegan communities are hostile at best.
I wouldn’t say Lemmygrad has odd takes for being MLs, they are extremely consistent with most organized ML parties worldwide. I’d need to know what you mean by “odd,” the fact that they have an ML line or their interpretation of ML, the latter of which is very standard from what I have seen.
Back to Veganism, I haven’t experienced hostility, and I think it’s generally going to be that way unless you bash veganism or defend antiveganism or non-veganism, hence the point of a vegan community. Just my 2 cents.
That’s good to know, thanks for sharing! I appreciate your explanations.
IDK, I disagree. I’ve experienced it both on reddit and here. Everyone is vegan or vegetarian for their own reasons, I don’t think enforces a specific ideology or you can’t discuss is fair to newbies or anyone is doesn’t 100% agree.
Regardless, I will look for another not lemmy.world one.
Everyone is vegan or vegetarian for their own reasons
A lot of people are vegan or vegetarian for the same reason. Plenty of groups within the movement have theory and a party line
A party line… for a diet?
I’m not saying they’re different reasons I’m saying they’re not the same as one online forums singular enforced reason.
Gotcha. In my opinion, one must understand both viewpoints, that of the newcomer and that of the tired, long-ime vegan. Looking at problems from one side alone is anti-dialectical and results in false conclusions. There will be no perfect community for the new and the old, and communities are made and maintained by the old so it will lean in their favor regardless.
Good application of dialects but they can at least be nice… :/
fuck 'em
who
the rich
I always wonder where people are going that this seems so common. I’ve been relatively low meat for a while, what’s called half-vegetarian/flexatarian. My experience is that most vegans/vegetarians just want to share their favorite recipe.
In my experience, this usually comes from people defending half-measures, which is fundamentally wrong from the vegan point of view, and thus the claws come out. If you aren’t going against the “correct” stance, vegans are very chill, as someone who is low meat as well I am working on eradicating that (which at this point is more of a social problem than individual).
I mean as a grumpy vegan it basically seems like hanging out with someone who’s like “Look, we’re reducing bombing hospitals but we still want to take the land” or something. It is a fundamental disconnect which still frames other living beings as things you can extend or revoke consideration from depending on how much you want what you get from killing them.
Would fewer non human animals be exploited in a meatless Monday world? Yes. Would that world still be an unimaginably cruel and hideous Holocaust of suffering created for selfish reasons by beings who know better? Yes.
Okay, but if you live in a world where hospitals are being bombed continuously, and you can push for bombs to not be dropped on Mondays, why would you ever not want that? Sure, it still won’t be the reality you want to live in, but it’s a step in the right direction. And if you can get people comfortable with Mondays, then that creates a much easier platform to talk about, “look that wasn’t so hard, why don’t we also include Tuesdays, and Wednesdays, and keep going from there”.
In my experience, the majority of people I interact with who aren’t vegan feel like the going 0 to 60 on full veganism is way too difficult and intimidating, especially when all their friends and family still eat meat.
Like I empathize with the moral dilemma militant vegans find themselves in, but if the world doesn’t match your ideals, is throwing a tantrum and vilifying people the best way to change hearts and minds?
This is the debate about the israel-gaza conflict all over again
Not wanting to rehash the same arguments over and over again when if you were genuinely interested you could find thousands of crystalised dialogues on the internet going over them is part of the reason we ban shit like this on vtc.
Do you expect to convince a lot of people you’re right with this approach? If you want to get a lot of people to agree with you, it’s not enough to have all the right ideas written down somewhere. You do have to educate and persuade, that’s just a fundamental part of any social movement.
When you’re hanging out with your friends do you call over every racist you see in the hopes of convincing them that they can be better?
I strongly suspect that you too find places where you can disengage from horror and just exist without constantly defending your ethics and being dogpiled by a world that thinks you’re at best misguided and at worst a cultural traitor.
I mean look at this, I explained why these spaces seem hostile in an extremely neutral and non-judgemental way and immediately got people who do not share my values at all tell me how I’m doing my values wrong because I’m not catering to them 24/7. It’s exhausting.
Yep, that’s what I’m trying to get at! Thank you for putting it in better words!
You’re all through this thread being very sympathetic to vegans 🤨 I wish you luck following your heart as I think it is probably a kind one.
Would fewer non human animals be exploited in a meatless Monday world? Yes.
I wouldn’t count on it
Joined/subscribed, but not vegan. I enjoy cooking and have started adding some vegan dishes to the rotation to learn some new cooking techniques on foods that I’m not familiar with cooking, like soy. I enjoy the new challenge. Also, I feel like there are probably health benefits. I’m particularly interested in awhile food based cheese substitutions. I found a fantastic vegan queso dip with 3 ingredients. The other stuff is good, too, but not really on my mind.
You’re exactly the type of person that I welcome that I believe other communities would be rude to! :) I eat soy daily based on my cuisine so I will try to share some recipes. Can you share the vegan queso dip in a post maybe? Sounds good!
I just want to say I love militant vegans, so long as militant means they are organized and actively creating the world they want to live in. if they are just preaching, I would not say they are militant, just evangelical.
and, to be clear, I’m neither. I just find militancy admirable.
How do you see vegans organizing and creating this world without preaching? How do you spread an ethical diet? Like that one dude saying struggle sessions and party line… for a diet, what
You can spread an ethical diet by making the ethical choices more affordable, and more available, today, in capitalism.
Just like anarchists who build things like: community gardens/farms, neighborhood affinity groups, etc etc.
Great point.
That reminds me Foguangshan nuns near Nanhua University in Taiwan. They sell vegetarian meals for 1 dollar so that the ethical choice is the affordable choice.
Also, look into your local fnb. Mine is Freegan and vegan.
Oh that’s cool! Why’re they always getting arrested tho? I don’t want to be but also do dumpsterdive on occasion
They’re usually getting arrested for illegally feeding the homeless
they can organize among themselves. affinity groups that practice direct action are like my favorite political orgs.
Direct action? You’re implying something beyond ethics and diet. But what? Honestly don’t know! ;)
animal liberation front did some good work. earth liberation front, just stop oil… you get the idea I hope
Ah! I do understand the point of those of course :)
most people with values will be pretty stringent about them
not sure you’re gonna find anything
Right now, nowhere on lemmy that I’ve found.
Mind you, it isn’t every person, but all the vegan communities and instances are currently run by militants of some degree. The .world one is the least militant that I’ve run across.
They aren’t all rude, but definitely have the kind of thinking that leads to rudeness eventually.
Which really sucks because there’s plenty of really chill vegans on lemmy. But you can’t talk to them in vegan spaces without it being a problem unless you’re parroting the scripture of vegan to their satisfaction.
Being real, I kinda wish someone would start a decent relaxed community.
I will try now at https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/plantbased
Is vegan cat food allowed?
I wrote a reply then saw your other comment and realized you’re just arguing
Pretty sure my other comment was a well thought out discussion of moral absolutism versus harm reduction. My ethics are relativist, even leaning towards moral skepticism. If you are not acquainted with these concepts then that’s fine but it’s a real position that many hold which creates a valid lens for why veganism (or really, all universalist ethics) tends to attract militants. Not “just arguing” which is you being dismissive. And kind of rude.
I don’t mean to be rude but you come to a post asking about good vegan subs saying why it’s wrong. Read the room
Like I said, I am just sharing a lens which attempts to analyze why these communities are like this. I am personally about 2/3 vegan, but find most vegan communities insufferable and felt like I had relevant perspective to share.
The idea of not eating meat isn’t “wrong,” and i never said sny such thing. Again, as a moral skeptic, that’s like saying “not eating meat is blue.” It’s a meaninglass statement.
Then I’m sorry, your first two comments made me think otherwise. I’ve been seeing a lot of toxicity and bad actors recently.
I agree with you from a personal diet perspective and as a Buddhist, I don’t think it’s wrong. I do think there are ethical virtues and it benefits many beings from not eating animal products though :)
Wasn’t .world the only one where an admin decided to go on a rampage?
Nah, just the most egregious incident. And even that only got attention because it’s such a big instance.
Thanks for taking the rudeness claim seriously! :) I fully agree with you.
Previously I started a plant based community on Lemmy.world maybe I will try to actually be active. You’ve inspired me
Not being useful to your question at all, but if you find or start a community, I’ll join. I’ve been various stages of vegetarian and vegan over the last 6 years. Never felt like I needed to talk about my specific, contextual exceptions, but I’m guessing it wouldn’t be well accepted among hardline vegans.
I will try to start it here: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/plantbased :)
Joined!
Yay :D welcome
That is useful :) I would love to be able to discuss this freely as well. I’ve been doing it for about the same time as you! Thanks for sharing!
I’ve also found that the vegans I know in my personal life are mostly nonjudgmental. Militant veganism feels like a stereotype or an anomaly of online spaces. Get to know some vegans at work/school/mural aid groups/activist orgs and you’ll probably find some friends who don’t need you to be 100% vegan all the time. Personally, I allow myself to slip into a vegetarian diet on my birthday, my partner’s birthday, and our anniversary. I’ve never received criticism for this, but I’d understand if other vegans had a problem with it.
You’re probably right, I also see it more online.
Your personal choice about holidays is exactly the kind of thing that would be attack on vegan@lemmy.world. That’s my main point :(
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There are a couple vegan specific instances that you could try searching for, I can’t point them out for you right now. But in my experience at least, they seem to be pretty reasonable.
Oh yeah good point! I’ve run into them too but can’t remember their names.
Vegantheoryclub.org is one, and while technically not Vegan focused, Hexbear.net is explicitly pro-Veganism.
Not certain on VTC, but Hexbear’s vegan community definitely took a hardline stance against the things OP’s asking for, with zero tolerance for things like vegetarianism or making changes to reduce your meat intake - it’s all or nothing.
Fair, doubt OP will find exactly what they want anywhere though. Most vegans are ethical vegans, so it’s hard to find some in favor of any meat eating.
Sorry, I should have said animal products - there’s an attitude that there can be no stages of transition to a fully plant based life, you have to immediately excise everything animal based in your life and replace it with plant based alternatives. The irl vegans I know (and what I think OP is looking for) tend to be more in favour of encouraging people to take steps to improve rather than rejecting people for not having taken all of the steps yet.
vegan theory club is probably not what the OP wants. We are friendly and relaxed but we maintain this by a zero tolerance stance against anything except veganism.
So vegans can freely chat and talk in good faith and safe in the knowledge they won’t have to defend themselves or stumble on something miserable, but if you want a space shared with carnists then uh. Yeah maybe hexbear is better?
I have a deep desire to resurrect the vegan struggle session every time I see people tone policing us on this website, but we live in 1984 and I know the mods would remove it smh-ing my head
I don’t need a struggle session for how I ethically eat. If you think not wanting people to be rude is tone policing then you’re probably not nice.
What?
It means griller. Someone who doesn’t have a strong opinion either way on a topic, or who seeks an impossible middle-way solution that pleases all sides.
In this context, OP wants a community that is both vegan and sufficiently accepting of non-vegans, which might be tough to find.
In this context, OP wants a community that is both vegan and sufficiently accepting of non-vegans, which might be tough to find.
Because being a preachy holier than thou dickhead is like, “the point” for a lot of vegans. Oh they’ll tell you it’s not that, while they tell you how much better they are than you because they reject anyone with a different opinion than they have, while you’re a rapist and a murderer because you let others be and make their own choices without evangelizing like a christian.
I’m fine with normal vegans, like the OP. In fact, most vegans I meet IRL are like OP, I even have a vegan friend who doesn’t give me shit about it and we take her veganism into concern when we eat and will go to a place that has good vegan and meat options (or she’ll cook her own vegan dish to share if potluck), fun times all around. But the Culinary Jehovah’s Witnesses are just as annoying as the actual Jehovah’s Witnesses. “Do you have a moment to talk about our lord and savior Daiya?” But the vegans don’t even have the balls to go door to door, they only recruit for their cult online, so honestly I respect it even less as much as I’d hate both.
Almost every single vegan was raised carnist. We don’t think we’re better, we wish people shocked us out of it earlier. If people are trying to convince you to go vegan it is because they hope that you might be better than them and change easily.
This is how the average hexbear user responds. Don’t think too deeply about it, because they sure aren’t.
The vegan community on lemmy.ml is technically larger, but I don’t know if it’s any less “militant and rude.” (I put that in quotes because I have no personal experience with that community)
I’d be interested in seeing an example or two if you have the time
Prob not on the Lemmyverse as a whole
